http://www.csnation.net
august 22nd, 2006
full article (polls, links, images, and text) @ http://www.csnation.net/articles.php/mailbag_228/
august 22nd, 2006
full article (polls, links, images, and text) @ http://www.csnation.net/articles.php/mailbag_228/
from: HutzGive this guy a standing ovation.
I think it's a great thing to be able to continue to evolve a game even when it's as old as CS. Quite frankly, it's naive to believe that a game has ever reached perfection - nothing is ever perfect, even games which have strong competitive appeal. The competitive appeal, however, introduces a problem...
[ad]When a competitive gamer learns all the ins and outs of a good game, they'll enjoy the meta-game (that is, set of dominant strategies) that exists. A good meta-game is what makes a competitive game timeless.
So a competitive player wants to know as much as they can about the meta-game in order to become as good a player as they can be. But if little changes start being made, changes to the meta-game are inevitable. The balance has been disrupted - what previously worked may not be viable anymore. Conversely, what didn't work before may become a new dominant strategy.
What the competitive player dislikes is the fact that they essentially wasted their time perfecting certain strategies (like quickscoping), and now they must search for new strategies and figure out what doesn't work anymore. Competitive players would much rather spend time improving rather than figuring out what the game has changed into. In essence, they are overly-obsessive with becoming good at the game (just like WoW addicts are overly-obsessive with their characters).
If the game was perfect to begin with, people would have every right to complain about every change that's made to it - after all, a change to something perfect, by simple logic, implies that the change made it worse. But the simple fact is that even though a varied and balanced meta-game exists, it does not mean that the game cannot be improved.
There are two conclusions here. First, it's that the truly good competitive players will have fun figuring out new strategies that come about with the changes that are made, while the simple wannabes will whine about the changes disrupting their game. Do not pay attention to the latter, since they are already lost causes who don't actually enjoy the game - they only enjoy winning. Second, it's that Valve needs to be careful with what they change - if they disrupt the meta-game too badly, CS may become a poor competitive game.
Okay, now my opinion on the radar change. Quite frankly, it's what CS has needed since day one. A good player can deliver incredibly valuable information to their teammates by simply being sneaky. This leaves the voice channel (in-game, Vent, what have you) open for other things, which is always good.
from: SupersonicCommunication seems to only be key amongst the pro players. For the every day Joe Schmo, there really isn't a need for it unless it's to belt out another high-pitched profanity. Generally, pub players tend not to coordinate all that much given how hectic some games can get.
They ruined the gameplay when they made source. They make more and more changes and it's just not the same anymore. I can see the radar change being helpful but a bit stupid really. The key to the game is communication, not just looking at enemies and everyone else being able to then know EXACTLY where they are. They don't realise what they're doing to the game.
from: mr spoonIt's true. The pro scene really hasn't taken off for Source yet, and it's due to a number of issues the game has. Nevermind how some just don't like change, there are bugs and there are issues that need addressed. SourceTV, diffusal bugs, crazy barrel pushing physics, etc. Though I'm not really too keen on how pro players try and dictate everything in their favor, they do have some valid points when it comes to those issues, and how fixing them could really push the game in the right direction.
I think CS:Source should differentitate itself from 1.6, so therefore have some features that may appeal and draw people to it. Just having graphical superiority has not proven to be enough to win over the players, so pushing it closer to a CS 2 may well pay off. I'd certainly be more interested in playing it occasionally unlike now (last played over a year ago).
from: A Blue DuckIt gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that some as of yet unborn gamer could be your next victim in Counter-Strike.
Those who worked hard to become experts at a specific moment(or version) are those with the most to lose because it's impossible for everything to ever be exactly the same again. However those who are always working hard to learn how to preform their best, reardless of the circumstances, are the ones our kids will be idolizing on prime time TV, owning nubs of the future.
from: [mia]buttmanYou're probably right about not many people noticing. It'll take some time though. Just watch the Steam forums or the comments here for the initial backlash once the update is released. It's easy to accept things and adapt. It happened when the Deagle quickswitch exploit was removed, it happened with the AWP quickscope exploit (for most of us at least).
The roots that started counter strike are just that, roots. Things grow from it.
There is no problem with stopping the AWP quick scope, it made some people too powerful.
And the radar changes don't even seem that big. The number of people who will take advantage of it are minute. Averting your eyes to your radar to find someone who is an enemy won't really change game play.
In competitive game play the communicate already where an enemy is.
In public play, people are usually so oblivious of their radar it won't matter.
So no, these changes don't even matter. No one should hate them or really love them as they more than likely won't notice.
from: WooFerPPKWell, there still is the VIP Mod (http://vipmod.punkassfraggers.com/) if you're really dieing for some VIP action in CS: Source. At last I heard though, there are still no official plans to add any other additional game modes to CS: Source.
I hope valve will begin to add more game play modes instead of the bomb the point or rescue a hostage. Maybe bring back the VIP Rescue :)
from: SintraWouldn't too many changes to CS: Source make it a new game experience though? I don't understand why 1.6 and a retooled CS: Source couldn't live in harmony as seperate entities. You'd still have your 1.6 experience and be able to go to Source for more of the same, but not. Just so long as there was enough changed to warrant playing both, and enjoying both at different levels.
Now, source... I for one am not impartial. I dislike source and can rant about what I dislike, but that's another story.
This radar change doesn't at first thought seem that much. But, while chatting with a friend about this subject, he was quick to point out that the cs radar sucks, and radar system such as the one present in ns (natural selection) is much more advanced and extremely useful. That hit me: how much of us actually spend a lot of time looking at the radar? In ns games can be decided by what's going on on the radar. It forces and facilitates communication between teammates on an average player level!
I think this radar change is a pretty good idea.
I also like the fact that source is changing. It would be best to hear out what the pros have to say. Little things such as the player movement not being as responsive as in 1.6 make a big deal of a difference.
Source is the future, whether we like it or not. And as our 1.6 has changed over time, source will too. As a csplayer, I've learnt to adapt to changes, but one thing is for sure, as long as 1.6 is around and source isn't changing as much as it should, I'm sticking to 1.6.
from: Rawwrrrrr GaraaarrrrrI really don't have a comment. I just wanted to share this with everyone.
me think radar good...
but radar not good until model all out!
no all model - game not good
me think game be good when bugs be all go bye bye
Rawrrrrrr
from: Mad Dog McKillFollowing your logic, don't they still need to add two new models to CS1.6? Seeing as how the new models you're referring two are only in Condition Zero...
Maybe before they add new stuff, they should finish adding all the models.. until that happens CSS is still a beta...
There is no Counter-Strike Source.. there is only Counter-Strike Source: Beta
Its a beta. Period.
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from: fraggdyaYou had me up until you said "vast amount of cvars" in Source. What? There are only a handful of cvars the typical gamer really needs to remember and most of them deal with rates. Those have always been around.
I'm tired of the changes - im not against change in games but the reason i followed the cs mod is because of the way it plays - from the spraying, to the accuracy needed, the recoil - the accessibility of it, everything. I think a lot of people were led to believe it would be cs1.6 with better graphics and some physics. Despite what Valve say - the vast amount of cvars within source, the pointless barrels, some of the greatest multiplayer maps of all time ruined, the spraying, the netcode - Im personally not happy with.
Valve could have had a winning formula if they had stayed as faithful to the original as possible - thats what is wanted and popular. - They didnt, and thats why cs1.6 AND css will die, and why css players are becoming disillusioned.
Note: if you play a public game its not bad, but the main two reasons why it is so popular are : accessibility - 1.6 ran on practically anything. and clans and matchplay.
from: Supersonic^OMG HI2U! <3
hey zisp
first i wuld like 2 say wow this site is awesum i think its the best cs site eva.
ok now to my point
i think that cs source is bad for you cuz it lags ur computer which makes it harder to play but thats canceled out cuz ppl on it totaly SUCK
rizzuh lives!
from: The Friskiness"Roots" in the sense that CS: Source came from features found in the last Counter-Strike, which would be 1.6 and also from Condition Zero. Look for the jetpack, the jetski, the heartbeat sensor, and a new gadget simply known as "Little Willy" to make an appearance in Counter-Strike 2.
The changes that CS:S recieves doesn't really bother me, (and I dont quite understand what you meant by "1.6 roots", the game has changed drastically since the beta. Unless some how 1.6 was considered "perfection") I could fall into the Don't Care/Adapt camp. Valve hasnt made any kind of off the wall changes like giving the Desert Eagle 12 shots, jetpacks to the CT's or psychic powers to the T's. Most of the changes are for the better. As for the radar tagging of opposition I think makes it helpful but puts people on autopilot. You don't have to call out on voice chat where someone is and I guess "Enemy Spotted." will be deemed useless pretty much. But I'll wait till it comes out to really form a solid opinion on it.
Congrats on bringing the mailbag back.
from: grendel03You're missing one important thing here. For some people Counter-Strike IS their world. People make a living off of the game either as professional gamers, pub all-stars that don't leave their room for hours at a time, or those wonderful folk that run Counter-Strike websites.
Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that there's this special place in the world that's immune to what happens in the rest of it. Change. The world changes, why not a game? Let's not forget that counter-strike is OLD, sure there was some nice padding put on for source but the basic game remained the same.
Counter-strike needs to be updated, and I'm glad to see Valve is doing it one step at a time. I'd much rather see this game adapted and improved instead of just falling into the shadows like so many games before it.
from: SpartibusNow, if people stopped playing CS1.6, wouldn't that tell you that people also wouldn't play something that is just a "prettier" version of what they grew tired of? Valve would have to make a new game that would appeal to fans of CS1.6 but isn't merely 1.6 with prettier graphics.
Here's the real question: Who cares about Counter-Strike: Source? CS 1.6 is where it's at and where it will be for many years to come. CS:S will never be THE game to play.
The day people stop playing CS 1.6 is the day Valve makes a game that replicates 1.6 exactly, just with prettier graphics. CS:S is definitely not that game.
from: machoI always thought they were too easy on the AWP and other sniper rifles. In any other game you have an accuracy bonus when you crouch (or go prone) and this helps to alleviate some "sway." With Counter-Strike lacking any of this, the devs had to do something to keep the 1-shot kill machine in check. It's just one way to bring some further semblence of realism into what is an already very arcade-like game.
Actually as I don't see the future of CS:S because it is not so hardcore PRO as cs 1.6 I really don't care about the changes. What concerns the quick-scope, then I don't think it actually was an exploit, because why should the gun shoot absolutely different when zoomed out? So the quick-scoping is just a way to ensure that the gun shoots normally.
from: Pyro978See, that's what I've been saying. CS has been updated so many times over the years. There have been many changes made (http://www.csnation.net/view.php/csinfo/version.csn) and people have found something to complain about in nearly all of them. It just doesn't feel right when there is a CS update and people don't complain about something. I'm pretty sure the world would end if a major update was released where nobody complained.
The changes being made are good because if you want people to stay interested in a game in the long run (i.e. in terms of years) you need to make changes that will improve the game. I remember playing CS back in the days of Beta 3 and compared to know it's almost a completely new game. Changing the radar is good because the current radar is clumsy and outdated. Sometimes it's really hard to tell where a teammate is or where someone dropped the bomb. Finally, by constantly updating and improving the game, it shows the creators of the game still care about it which probably means they care about the players too. There hasn't been a change yet that I haven't disliked, well...maybe not the flashbang because I remember the screen only gets whited out but they made it so that you hearing a ringing noise too.
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from: AsukaA pro CS player who actually likes what they're hearing in these announced updates? They do exist!
Im a big supporter of the Valve updates. Never have been disappointed and never will be. Update sounds great. Yes i do play cs competitively.
from: GpigBut right now, it isn't CS2. CS2 is still some seperate game that may or may not still be in production. I think the jury is still out on whether or not Gooseman is still even in a conscious state of being. You'll really only see massive gameplay changes in CS2. New or different weapons, different maps, etc etc.
They announced source as just a port of CS and that it was not CS 2. It was obvious on release that it wasn't true, and that it was CS 2. I'm hoping they put vehicles into some official maps and make the maps larger with the changes. The source engine can make pretty large maps, so I don't see why they're not making any. Let's get some jeepathon up in this mother. They could also put in some new weapons. They should save the huge changes (like co-operative movements and boosts, more breakable shit such as lights, and bears) for CS:S 2.
Oh, and no, I don't mind them changing the way the radar works in source. It sounds interesting.
Also is zips answering this or is someone funny doing them? If it's zips, 10 bucks he puts some fucking snakes on a plane reference in the mailbag.
from: James ScallywagNope. In fact, so few people play it we're hard at work on finalizing the conversion to Steam-Nation.
People still play cs?
from: GrimbalWell thankfully, some simple bug fixes are planned for the upcoming update. If subsequent updates continue with the trend, we should hopefully see even more bug fixes. Sadly, the news post really doesn't say much beyond minor bug fixes.
Well to start off i will say that having played CS:S threw the beta and still play it now a few days a week i can honestly say i am disappointed with the shape that the game is in...
I have found a few things that seem to disappoint not just me but a vast number of the CS:S community, I dont know if this mailbag is meant to be messages to valve about what are our likes and dislikes are about CS:S as a whole in general but i am aiming my thoughts and question's at valve and i hope that maybe someone at valve will read them and also answer them.
There seems to be a number of vital issues that dont seem to be getting resolved in CS:S
1. Simple Bugs
2. The Hitboxes
3. The crouch bug
4. Hostage AI
5. More of a steam bug but CS:S related "Favorites & Game server history disappearing...
Need i go on?
I think that after how long CS:S has been out the content and game bugs just do not to the game justice at all.
At the moment all i seem to be seeing is new de_dust HDR! new de_Train HDR! How about add the ES_ and AS_ game modes back freshing the game up! is it just me or are the maps becoming abit of a bore?
But still if any of that above was to happen i would like to see simple bug fixes first!!! all valve seem to be interested in atm is how good the game looks not how the actual gameplay is.
from: peaglePOV bug mention again? Check. Though this time there's a fancy schmancy graphic for us to look at! Is this really such a big issue though after a number so many years of it being as it is? Wouldn't changing it merely create more complaints, because even though it'd be correct, it'd screw up a lot of those established "line of sights" that are key to pro gamers the world over.
I'll guess that most people want other issues addressed before changes to the radar. Personally it sounds fine to me and might help teams on pubs provide more backup if they can easily see where the action is. Well the 2 players in pub-world that use the radar anyway. !WTFZOR!={A$$T1GER}= is still going to awp from T spawn if the whole CT team has a tea party and sends invites.
As for the other issues, I have to admit, maybe I just don't understand the complexities of it, but I'd like to know why it's such a big deal to fix the crouched POV issue. Someone even made this handy graphic: http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1876/cssbug2he5.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1876/cssbug2he5.jpg)
Would they really have to remake maps? I'm thinking not. But getting shot in the head by someone whom I can only see the feet off gives me the 'yips'. (Did I say that right?)
from: FlyingMongooseEnjoy (http://kittenwar.com/)!
I like kitties!
from: radiumz0rzLearn to love it, or die trying!
Long time reader [beta 4], first time writer!
I think source is a completely different game than CS and everyone knows that. Making it try and stay close to a game that it isn't won't let it grow into a bigger fan base. I find the changes a new aspect that everyone is gonna have to learn to love!